Mathematics and Outdoor Learning with Janice Novakowski (Podcast Transcript)

Lauren 0:00

Hi, I'm Lauren MacLean, and welcome to mentoring nature connections.

I work as a mentoring support teacher for the Coquitlam district in the area of mathematics. I'd like to start by taking a moment to acknowledge the traditional territories we each find ourselves on today. For me, I'm currently living, learning and playing on the land of the Kwekwetlem First Nations, which lies within the shared territories of the Tsleil-Waututh, catsi, Musqueam, kikite, Squamish and stolen nations. Land acknowledgement is an act of truth and reconciliation. It's a journey that I'm committed to learning more about, and I'm hoping to deepen my understanding of land acknowledgement as my learning journey progresses. Well, it's February 2021, and I'm starting off the year by trying out something new. This podcast. For those who know me, know that I love to talk and share stories while walking in the woods. So I figure, why not blend my two passions, storytelling and outdoor learning? The name mentoring nature connections comes from my very fortunate background of having so many amazing mentors, especially when my teaching career was just beginning. These mentors supported my learning journey by provoking my thinking and encouraging me to step outside my comfort zone. In fact, my childhood friend and former colleague, Kelly SCIUTTO, who works for the Surrey district in BC, has just published her first children's book titled, What does it mean to be brave? So I'm taking a message from her book by putting myself out there, and I'm looking forward to what this adventure will teach me. Thank you so much for joining us today. I would like to ask a favour to start off for you to pause and take a photo of the view you have right now and upload it to social media, Facebook, Instagram or Twitter, and tag it with the hashtag, mentoring, nature connections. And when you tag it, please let us know where you're coming from, because we all know that context and place have a big impact on our perspective. I'd also like you to please take a moment to review us on Apple. With your feedback, I will be able to better align the topics to your questions and your passions. Today, we're going to be talking about how you can infuse a mathematical lens into your outdoor learning adventures with your students. And when I look back at my early math experiences, they sadly aren't always in the most positive light reflecting back on it. Now, I think it's because my memorization skills were a bit weak. Remembering a procedure or equation seemed unimportant if I couldn't understand how it fit into my everyday world. I also had this fixed mindset that I wasn't good at math, and that wouldn't change no matter how hard I tried. And I think it's these experiences which is why, as an adult, I'm so invested in developing a Balanced Mathematics Program so that there will always be multiple entry points for students, no matter their comfort or skill level. So today, through Zoom, I'm joined by one of my most influential mentors, Janice Nowakowski, will help facilitate our discussion and investigation into the connection between outdoor learning and mathematics. She is a K to 12 mathematics and numeracy consultant for the Richmond District in BC. She is also an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia, working with pre-service teachers, and is on the board of directors of the Vancouver Reggio Association and facilitates the BC Reggio-inspired mathematics project. She is a talented photographer and Baker and is always looking for new and innovative ways to learn and teach. Thanks so much for joining us today. Janice, how are you?

Janice 3:37

I'm wonderful. It's an honour to be here. Lauren.

Lauren 3:40

Thank you again, and I'd like to start by asking, what's your favourite memory of being out in nature, and how did that have an impact on your beliefs about the importance of outdoor education?

Janice 3:50

I think my passion for outdoor education goes back to childhood experiences. I spent most of my summers outdoors, either camping with my family or at a cabin that we had on Salt Spring Island. And I have very fond memories of trekking up into the forest with a book and sitting on this huge boulder covered with moss in the forest, and just being so content in that particular place when I think of my special places in my life, that is one of them, and then also my time at the beach, whether it was at Salt Spring or as a brownie and Girl Guide on the Sunshine Coast, jumping on logs and looking at tide pools and exploring the tide on our coast tiers. So those experiences I took into my beginning years of teaching and throughout my career, and I remember my very first year of teaching, I took a group of grade one and two students out to Crescent Beach and to explore tide pools. And we had read all about them and learned about them, but many of the children from my class in steested. At the time, hadn't been out to, you know, that part of the Lower Mainland, and to explore the tide pools in that way it I could just see the joy on their faces and the connections that they were making to the things that we had read about and learned about, to actually see them and touch them and experience that for themselves. Just stuck with me and resonated with me about how important it is to connect, you know, what we learn about on paper or through books to actual experiential learning. And so that was one time that really resonated with me. And then I still remember I was a librarian, but I was also teaching kindergarten classes for their preps. At the time at Blair Elementary in Richmond, and I took the group of kindergarten students out. We went out every time I had them. Outdoor learning was part of what we did. And the students discovered this mound of moss growing on a tall, want to say, like a pipe, but it was kind of like a Yeah, I guess it was just a pipe coming up out of the ground, but Moss had found a way to grow there, and the children were just so genuinely curious about how that happened and how it was growing there. And their eyes were just so wide as they look closely at that moss, and we're trying to make the connections about how it was growing in that particular place and space that it just again, filled me with joy to see their wonder and their curiosity, and that left me with just so many levels of inspiration in terms of where to go Next, in terms of my learning with those students. So just those little moments where you stand back as an educator and you see the children just in it and immersed and in the flow of the experience. Yeah, those are some very special memories.

Lauren 6:57

Now, Janice, you also mentioned taking students outdoors during prep time. What do you think the challenges are when teaching mathematics in nature, and what supports do you put in place to overcome those challenges?

Janice 7:08

So in my position that I hold right now in my school district, my area is mathematics and numeracy, and sort of looking at the curriculum as a whole, and so I'm always seeking opportunities for children to think about mathematics in ways that may not be their usual experience with mathematics. So whether that's outdoors or through the studio, and I think when we say to students and maybe to adults as well, well, we're going to go do math outdoors today, they might have an image of taking a book with them, or a paper or a notebook with them, and that we're just going to sit outside and do our math, and that's one way of thinking about doing math outdoors. But when I think about taking children out to think about mathematics in the world around them, I'm looking for ways for them to see the world around them through that mathematical lens. Very much inspired by the work of Dr Cynthia Nicol at UBC and her work around that. So having students look at the world and say, Where do I see shapes? Where do I see patterns? Where do I see symmetry? So it's the outdoors that's offering us the mathematics, you know, as a gift. And it's like, can we find those examples of where we can see mathematics living outdoors, so going outdoors for a walk, and might just be a shape walk one day, or it might be a symmetry walk or a pattern walk as a way to introduce that idea of looking at the world through that mathematical lens. So that's often one way of starting. And then once you've sort of exposed children to that, they learn to make connections. And you know, we think about scale and size and symmetry and shape all together when we're identifying species, for example. And we might have a field guide that comes along with us, that is a tool that we use, again, looking at the world through mathematics as a way to help us understand, you know, plants and animals as well, and how they interact. So I would say that's sort of my has been my focus in terms of getting children out there and having them make their own connections, connections to self, into world, and math to math connections. And I would say some of the obstacles or challenges that I've had in doing that mathematics outdoors is again helping everyone understand what mathematics is, that it's not just about computation. It's not just about writing it down and knowing your facts and being able to multiply. Mathematics is such a broader subject than that, and it's actually a very creative discipline and a very open discipline, and it's about dialog and discourse and observation and doing and so. Trying to make sure that I'm emulating that in the work that I do with children, and that they're working together and collaborating, and again, that it's experiential, and I think it's a more holistic approach to education. And again, that can be something new for children and for adults. So helping them see that? Well, it's not just about the math. When we look at a tree, we're not just measuring it, we're also thinking about the story of the tree and how that tree might have been used, you know, by different cultures and communities over, you know, the years, what that tree offers, the symbolism that certain trees and plants hold in different cultures and communities. So there's all those holistic layers as well that connect to the work, which again, is broadening people's understanding of what schooling and education is. And so I would say those are some of the challenges helping people understand what mathematics is and then how to experience learning in the world through maybe a first people's perspective and a more holistic perspective. I also have been in situations where children and families don't always want their children outside. They have concerns about it not being clean, or that they might get dirty and that that might somehow cause them illness. And I think that there's a lot of recurrent research, and especially in Canada and our medical associations and pediatric associations highly recommend that children are spending hours of time outside every day, not just for their physical health, but also for the mental and their emotional health. And so I think that that's one way to help, to talk to parents and adults about the benefits of being outside, and then coaxing them into that learning of mathematics outside as well. We lose too many children in mathematics. They get turned off of mathematics, they don't see it as something they want to continue to pursue. And I think from a young age, we need to instill an excitement about mathematics and a connection to it by helping them see that it's so open and there's so many aspects of mathematics, and I think that's one of the ways that outdoor learning helps support that.

Lauren 12:22

I think what comes hand in hand with seeing mathematics as this subject that spans beyond just computations and algorithms, is this question of responsibility, for lack of a better word, making sure that we are covering all our curricular areas throughout the year. Speaking from experience, I felt that anxiety when I switched grades from primary to intermediate, and all of a sudden, I found myself reverting back to almost a step-by-step guide so that I had the confidence in knowing that I was covering everything that needed to be covered. But even in the second year of teaching that grade, I was already more comfortable with play-based mathematics, because I had some experience with the curriculum expectations.

Janice 13:05

In our context, here in British Columbia, we have a mandated curriculum, and there's this intersection of curricular content and curricular competencies. And I think as teachers, we have a responsibility to know our curriculum, to always have that in the background of our minds, and when we know our curriculum really well and know sort of the the age level of our students and what we can expect from them, then that opens us up to opportunities for emergent learning that we Find when we're outside. So for example, with a grade six class, we might have done some beginning work around angles. You know, in the classroom, I might have taught students how to use a protractor, and we might have measured some angles around the classroom, you know, the edge of their tables and etc. But then, you know, when we're out on a math walk, especially in the winter, when we can see the structure of trees and the branches, and we have students noticing that, and we might, I might have chatted with them a little bit about fractals and the patterns in which trees, branches and roots grow, but then I might say, Huh, well, here's a great opportunity look at all these angles that we can see. Are they obtuse? Are they acute? Are they approximately 90 degrees? What sort of math opportunity can I create on the spot? Because I've made a connection, and I want to help foster that connection-making in the students. But it's when I know my curriculum and I'm open to thinking about it in new and different ways when I'm outdoors, that we can seize the moment for those emergent opportunities.

Lauren 14:45

I love how emergent learning is such a big part of your teaching philosophy. It speaks so much to how you see students as capable and competent. I know there can often be some pushback when it comes to teaching mathematics in a play based way, as we are often doing when we teach it outdoors. So can you speak to how you manage this?

Janice 15:06

So I have found in my work, both outdoors and in the studio, that documentation and making our learning visible has been fairly critical, not just for students, but also for the adults in their lives, whether it's other teachers in the building or the families at home, and helping them understand that the work that we're doing, and, you know, honoring the fact that also that this isn't the only mathematics. You know, experiences that they're having, they're having a variety of mathematical experiences. Some days they are, you know, they're doing a number talk on the whiteboard in their class and practicing computational strategies for multiplication. Other times, they might be doing centers or stations with materials in their classroom. But then there are these opportunities for other types of mathematical connections outdoors. And we want students and adults to value those experiences and also realize that this is a it's just as valuable learning as those other those number talks or those centers and stations. So how do we make that learning visible? And I always have a camera or phone or something with me for taking photographs, I have found that one of the most powerful ways to show the mathematics that students are engaged in, but I also take a lot of video, and I use both the photos and videos to revisit the learning with students. There's that metacognitive and self reflective piece that comes from revisiting your learning, you know, when you're back indoors. I used to, you know, at Blair, pop it up on Apple TV, and we used to look at those photographs. And, you know, what did we do today? What did we learn about and then, what's next? What, what might we want to investigate next based on what we saw outside? And how can we bring some of that outdoors in through photographs or through bringing in some of the materials and then creating I used to do Animoto videos, but I use clips a lot now to share on E portfolios with families so that they can see the learning experiences and the mathematics and the mathematical language that is coming out through experiencing mathematics outdoors, so that they can also use some of that when they take their own children out for a walk or out to the park or the forest, so that you're modelling some of that teaching and learning for those families, and then also creating documentation panels that we can make visible in the hallways. Right now, we don't have parents coming into the school, but you can put them in the windows where they do come in outside of the school to pick up children, or, again, post those to, you know, e portfolios, or send home by email, where you have photographs, you know, of the learning that is happening. You have some of the children's language and the discourse that's happening, but then you also have some teacher reflection as well that is helping others understand the richness in the experience that you've had outdoors.

Lauren 18:08

Yes, and as you said, one of my favorite things about documentation panels is that it does highlight the learning journey for both the teacher and student, especially because if we were not privy to participating in the activity, being able to read about how the inquiry began, and seeing photos of what the learners did is the next best thing. So I guess what I'm curious about now is, how do you structure your outdoor learning time?

Janice 18:33

So when I take groups of children and their teachers outdoors to experience mathematics, I usually have something in mind. So I've talked to the teacher, and we've talked about what they're learning about right now in their classroom, and we're thinking about ways to extend and enhance and connect that learning when we're outdoors. So I'll often I have my studio wagon that we take outdoors that has tools and materials, and sometimes I just have my go bag, which is a little backpack, you know, full of all sorts of different tools, magnifying glasses, measuring tapes, field guides, etc. So depending on what we're doing, I'll take those tools outside with us, and I might have a little mini lesson planned. I might read a book or show some images or share a new tool for them to use, and then they might go off and investigate something specific. So can you find examples of symmetry? Or I was out with a grade three four class in the fall, and all the leaves were on the ground, and I was like, Okay, so we've been thinking about equivalent fractions in class. Or was a grade four or five class actually equivalent fractions? And how can you use the materials that we have here on the land to help you make those connections and show us what you know about equivalent fractions. And so some children collected sets of fractions of different colors, but then other children found leaves that had or sets of sets of leaves and represented equivalent fractions with those. And then others found. On leaves that had different colors and different proportions and related that to fractions. So again, using what you have, but giving them a starting point or some inspiration. And then once you've done that work, and they've shared, and they might do a little gallery walk outside in terms of, you know, the different representations they have, you know, then you're looking for openings. You're looking for another opening now to take this to the next place. And so it might be looking at the up at the trees, or up the sky. And if we had to estimate, for example, you know about what fraction of the sky right now is covered in clouds, what would your estimate be? And maybe it's a completely cloudy day, so then you don't use that day, but you're looking around your space and your place and on the land for those openings to further extend that sort of mini lesson or that opening that you started. And you know that might require a little walk or moving to different locations. But again, it's when you have that lens on and you have that curriculum in your mind that you can extend. You know that that starting point I always have something in my back pocket, though, because sometimes things don't pop up and things don't emerge, and so, you know, sometimes I've had one of the things I've often prepared is sort of like little treasure hunt cards. You know that students can work in in partners or triads together, and those you know, have you know, can you find a leaf that is more than one half yellow, or can you find a leaf that has about two equal parts of two different colours, or that type of thing? And you know, then they they're collaborating and working together, but maybe you've moved to another location to do that from where you were before. So just having some of those things in mind. And then, you know, and then maybe connecting that math topic, you introduce, like fractions to then measurement. So you're making those math to math connections. And so maybe you can see the school that you're going back to from the distance. And, you know, can we estimate the distance from where we are to there? Can you visualize where about the halfway mark is walking back? When will we be three fourths back to the school? Can you visualize that? So, just again, it's just always, you sort of build a repertoire of those kinds of things that you think about in the spot, but it's using the place and the outdoors that you're in at the time to inspire your questions and your prompts for your students.

Lauren 22:30

I love how many examples you can just list off the top of your head. So many of them are these little nudges and prompting students to see and notice different things. I mean, I never would have thought about your example of visualizing where the halfway mark is that's so wonderfully simple, and it goes back to this notion of expanding our idea that math is not just computations. I'm wondering how you navigate these prompts when you're outdoors? Do you bring in small groups of students after they've made an observation, or do you gather all the students at once?

Janice 23:03

So my I see my role when I'm out there with students is to be paying attention, paying close attention to what they're noticing and what they're doing, and listening into their conversations for something that I can pick up on to share out with the whole group. And that might be, you know, me inviting those students to share what they have noticed and what they've done. And it's also I just find my brains always just connecting away as I'm watching the students as well and trying to make those pedagogical decisions in the moment in terms of what is, what is worth, sort of bringing everyone back together around to provoke and nudge their thinking about whatever concept it is we're exploring at the time. So if it's fractions that we're exploring, and I see that someone has really made an interesting connection around what we've been learning around equivalent fractions, then that might be a time where I'm like, Okay, can you just hold that thought, and I'm going to bring everyone together, and then, you know, whatever sort of routine you use for bringing children back together when you're outdoors, bring them back together, and then have the students explain what they noticed and what they did, and then toss that back out to the rest of the class and say, Okay, I wonder how this has maybe informed your thinking or inspired you in some way. And that's that nudge, that gentle nudge, to have them revisit when I go back to, you know, the the work from Selma Wasserman, play, debrief, replay. I mean, that's so much of that experiential learning, like give them a chance to explore and play and think and then come together, debrief, and then off you go again. And it's sort of like these layers to me, that just keep building learning from each other, so creating that environment where we're learning. And listening to each other and CO constructing our understanding together, I think, is so important, but it's as the educator you know, making that decision about when to interrupt their their play or their investigations, and making that decision about when it's worthwhile. And sometimes the children will tell you this, and Miss Nowakowski, I really think we need to let everyone know about this. And when you build a culture of that, then you start to hear that, because they want to share their findings. They know that they have found something special that is worth sharing with the whole class. So I love when that happens. It fills my heart well.

Lauren 25:39

I've seen you work in action, Janice, and that excitement that students have when coming up to you and sharing their mathematical discoveries is quite amazing to watch now, because we're nearing the end of our time, I'd like to switch gears just slightly and ask you what your one takeaway would be for people who may be beginning their outdoor learning journey, and how they can make connections with mathematics

Janice 26:01

so the phrases I often use when starting working with teachers who are new to working outdoors is taking children out, whether it's starting with a sit spot or it's taking them for a walk, you know, a walk in some sort of place, even it's around Your school yard or to a park or a garden. What do you notice? What do you wonder? What math Do you see? And that is really sort of the three basic questions that I use usually the first time we just go out without tools or equipment or anything, and we're just using our senses to again, see the world through that new mathematical lens. And then the next time we might bring up clipboards and students start recording what math they see. And then maybe the next time it's we do a specific focus, a conceptual focus. So you know, what shapes are we noticing? Where do shapes live here? So moving from what math Do you see? So what math lives here? What math is embedded in this place and this space and on the land, and then, sort of the questions evolve over time, from what math Did you see, what math lives here, to what mathematical story does this place tell? And there really is an evolution there that you build on over time, as students feel more connected to the land, more connected to mathematics, and have a deeper understanding of what mathematics is.

Lauren 27:40

That's such a great example. And I've seen those postcards you made that have the pictures of local places with those three prompts, what do you notice? What do you wonder? What math Do you see? And I can speak from experience that having those postcards are such a great tool and reminder for how we can uncover mathematics outdoors and that we can do it with very little prep. We can observe and question and wonder about mathematics. So switching topics a bit, I like to ask every guest about a novelty nature note, basically just a fun way of asking what your favorite nature fact is. Mine is about how common symmetry is in nature and the type of symmetry provides different purposes. So we have bilateral symmetry, whereas starfish have rotational symmetry, which helps them attack their prey from different directions and angles.

Janice 28:30

I think one of my most current teachings was when I was fortunate to do a tour of the land in the Musqueam community, and I had always knew about salmon berries, and knew sort of they were one of the first berries that, you know, came out in this on the land here in the spring. But understanding that indigenous connection to the land and how time is measured and how we think about time, through what is happening on the land and in the in the place around us, and learning that the hunkamenam, speaking people of the particular place where I live and work, call that time of year. You know what we would call May and June in our calendar, the time of the salmon berries. You know that that really shifted my thinking about how we how we connect, how our lives progress, and how we measure time in our lives, and how that is so much connected to the world, what is happening in the world around us. So that was some fairly recent learning for me in the last, you know, five or six years, but something that has resonated with me in terms of thinking about my own personal connection to the land.

Lauren 29:53

I appreciate that your story comes from your own personal experiences visiting and touring the Musqueam community. I. I'm wondering if there are other people and resources that inspire you as a learner and as an educator.

Janice 30:02

So, building on that teaching that I had about the salmonberries in the spring - that teaching came from the late Terry Point of the Musqueam community, and I want to honour the teachings he offered me in terms of connecting mathematics and science and the land. And also my work and practice over the years, learning from local weavers from different communities and how I've learned about the connection between cedar and wool and the cultural practices of weavingand how much mathematics is embedded in those practices. So I just want to honour those teaching from Jessica Sylvia from the Sechelt Nation, Janice and Buddy George of the Squamish Nation, and Alice Gus of the Squamish Nation as well.

Lauren 32:04

Thank you so much, Janice, for being here today and sharing all your knowledge with us!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai